Drilling alabaster

[Hap Hagood]

Greetings All,
I've just finished a large (50 lb.) alabaster eagle bust & plan to mount it on a base using 3/8" threaded stainless rod. Problem: I've never drilled alabaster before. Would greatly appreciate any how-to advice on drilling alabaster.
Hap Hagood

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[John VanCamp]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hap Hagood" <hapart-wk4H/***@public.gmane.org>
To: "Stone" <stone-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 3:12 PM
Subject: [stone] Drilling alabaster

Post by Hap Hagood
Greetings All,
I've just finished a large (50 lb.) alabaster eagle bust &

plan to mount it on a base using 3/8" threaded stainless rod.
Problem: I've never drilled alabaster before. Would greatly
appreciate any how-to advice on drilling alabaster.

Post by Hap Hagood
Hap Hagood

Hap---Do you have a bit of scrap to test on? Have never drilled
alabaster, but have had good luck in softer limestone using wood
working bits (Paddle bits and forsener bits) and rotary drill
only. Don't think that I would want to take the hammer drill to
something like that. Good luck
JVC

[Don Dougan]

Hi Hap,

Though you can use masonry drill bits with carbide tips, a cleaner and
more accurate hole can be drilled in alabaster with a regular high-speed
twist drill bit at a slow speed.

Running the drill motor at a high speed will cause the edges to chip and
possibly cause the stone to crack -- if you have a variable speed drill,
adjust it so the speed is less than 200 rpm or so -- probably the lowest
setting on the trigger before the drill wants to stall.

Use a steady, even pressure, and clean out the hole by either withdrawing
the bit every fraction of an inch, or keep an air nozzle blowing surface
of the hole during the drilling operation.

Also, it will reduce the likelihood of splitting the stone if the hole is
several times the diameter of the finished hole away from any outer
surfaces or edges. If your hole is more than 1/4" in diameter, using a
smaller pilot and then stepping it up to the final size in several stages
will help.

When I mount a piece on a pin, I usually figure as a rule of thumb that
the depth of the hole is approximately one-quarter to one-third the
overall height of the piece, and/or perhaps twenty times the diameter of
the rod used for the pin.

Good Drilling to You,

Don


www.dondougan.com

[a***@public.gmane.org]

Hi Hap,

I just drilled about 15 7/8" wholes in an array of candle
holders my wife and I made for presents. I used a diamond
core bit on a drill press at very slow speed as Don
recommends, with water, though not center fed. The hole
core drill set-up is expensive and if a regular drill bit
works that sounds good. The one thing I can tell you is
keep touching your bit to see if it is getting hot, for if
it is heat the will crack your piece. If you use water
stop at the first sign of steam. I didn't want that bit
to be even warm to the touch after I cracked a
candleholder, and cooked several others. When "cooked"
the alabaster we were using clouded up and whitened, and,
of course, expanded momentarily.

Bill

[Dulce Maria Rico]

Hi Don,
I sent you an email but maybe you didn't get it.
I am interested in the addresses for the quarries near Atlanta. Do you know?
I tried to find on line but didn't get any and maybe I am searching wrong.
Thank you,

Dulce Maria Rico
www.ricolopez.com
Imagination is the spur of delights -- Marquis de Sade
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Dougan" <dondougan-***@public.gmane.org>
To: <stone-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:48 PM
Subject: [stone] Re: Drilling alabaster

[Bob Hackett]

Rather high minded question don`t you think?
After you all decide and get it recorded be sure to send copies around so
we`ll all know who`s in violation from now on.I`m sure all things up till
the date the decision is recorded and filed will be "grandfathered" and we
can still consider them as objects of true art,even if we still don`t like
them.
In keeping with the "Act local,think global" movement I`d like to suggest
an alternative question to ponder."What part can I play in art?" might be
alittle more helpful on a personal level and bring more usable real world
results.

For the record,and I`m assuming you`re gathering input worldwide,my take on
the original question is;
Canned feces-not art.
1/2 cows in Lucite-not art
Antique urinals-maybe(depends on the urinal)
Minimalist Asian sculpture ala Bill-most definately
Tart on Stienway-yes(although I suspect it`s more the sizzle they`re selling
than the steak)

You`ve got your work cut out for you here folks.My guess is that whenever
you put something behind velvet ropes there will always be at least one
person(however misguided)willing to draw his sword and proclaim it art.
Glad you all have a new hobby.


Bob

[a***@public.gmane.org]

Ouch!

[Bob Hackett]

----- Original Message -----
From: <abknight-***@public.gmane.org>
To: <stone-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 7:51 AM
Subject: [stone] Re: What can be art?

Ouch!

Just alittle dose of my own brand of reality.

Instead of posing broad questions like this why not choose a more narrow
focus and take off in that direction?
What will help me become a better craftsman and artist?How about a starting
point like David Pye`s books or more recently,"Appearance and Reality" by
Stephen Hogbin?How about references dealing with technique for working the
chosen medium or characteristics of different stone,wood,metal,etc?As Ernest
says,how about some"News that I can use".

An analogy would be to ask"How can one become a soldier"?The quick and easy
answer is to sign up.
Once you put the uniform on you are,for all intents and purposes a
soldier.Whether or not you are a real soldier only your heart, mind and
combat can tell you.Others may give you medals and proclamations saying you
are a member of the club but it`s up to you to feel comfortable at the
table.
Better to ask "How can I be a better soldier"?Now we`re getting somwhere!The
very real answers to that would be to learn to shoot well and consistantly
with both hands(A skill every soldier will benefit from if for no other
reason than it builds confidence) and to surround yourself with people you
trust who are heading in the direction you want to go(good advice for
improving most any situation).
Some find it either useful or entertaining(I sometimes find it both) to ask
broad and nebulous questions.Others consider this to be"navel gazing" as a
friend puts it.In my experience these broad questions mostly ask for
opinions and aren`t aimed at resolving much.Just the thing required to add
spice to a dinner party.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!


Bob

[Bill Marsh]

Bob Hackett wrote:

Better to ask "How can I be a better soldier"?Now we`re getting somwhere!

Wouldn't that be "naval" gazing?

[Clive Murray-White]

Hi all!

How much art contained out of 10
Canned faeces: 3
1/2 cows in Lucite 1
Antique urinals 0 - Duchamp's R Mutt 5
Minimalist Asian sculpture as liked by Bill 2-4
Tart on a Stienway 0

This unanswerable question always gets us sucked in, this may be because Art
is the only term covering a vast collection of activities.

By contrast if we look at writing we are quite happy to accept that most
writers of books are not "artists", there is a delineation between
literature and writing. So most writing is not and cannot be literature.

I actually think its the same in the visual arts, I think its quite
conceivable and blatantly obvious that the vast majority of Painting,
sculptures, prints, installations etc etc contain absolutely no art at all.
The fact that is a sculpture does not necessarily make it art. Hence 0 for
what we are calling "Tart on a Steinway"

Poetry suffers from the same problem as art!

My interest is really how to score more than 5.

RE: Norman's observation "(Clive) once told me that a Henry Moore could tell
us more about how a woman of that period saw herself than any number of
words could say"

I say something very close to that very often, "Good Henry Moore reclining
woman could tell us more about how people of that period saw themselves than
any number of words could say"

A good Henry Moore reclining woman would have to break the 5 barrier on my
score card. I'll add that has taken just about a whole lifetime to get to
that view.

Clive

Sculptor Clive Murray-White
Web: www.cowwarr.com

[Dulce Maria Rico]

why would anybody say that " american woman" , or tart on piano as some of
you want to call it,doesn't contain any art? I don't understand it. It is
dangerous to star saying what art is and is not, aren't artist supposed to
be open minded?
What is wrong with a woman on top of a piano?
I consider art any process of the creative mind, regardless of subject,
material or technique. It could be more or less pleasant or nothing at all,
beautiful or in bad taste, but as soon as it is thought and created it is
art -for me of course-
I just don't like judging others and their work in negative ways for no good
reason. But that is just me.

Dulce Maria Rico
www.ricolopez.com

Post by Clive Murray-White
Hi all!
How much art contained out of 10
Canned faeces: 3
1/2 cows in Lucite 1
Antique urinals 0 - Duchamp's R Mutt 5
Minimalist Asian sculpture as liked by Bill 2-4
Tart on a Stienway 0
Clive

[Rick Farnkopf]

Post by Dulce Maria Rico
why would anybody say that " american woman" , or tart on piano as some of
you want to call it,doesn't contain any art? I don't understand it. It is
dangerous to star saying what art is and is not, aren't artist supposed to
be open minded?

My 2 cents ...

I agree - NO-BODY but NO-BODY can say what is or isn't ART. That's
dangerous ground for all involved.

It's not even necessary. Just produce what you like with the wonderful
skills you've grown to know.

Some time I meet guys that say Rock music and punk music isn't music and
that Jazz is the only real music. Well - I'd have to ask that

person if they get out much! Yea, jealously, narrow mindedness all looks
the same some times.

I just do what I like - I don't stop to even compare my music or whatever to
anyone else's whatever.

Who cares any way!

Here's to doin' what you enjoy! ART!

rick f

[Faraut Philippe]

Post by Rick Farnkopf
Here's to doin' what you enjoy! ART!
rick f
Amen to that!

Philippe

[Tomas Lipps]

hello all, I just had this query. I'm unable to provide any answers
myself and wonder if anyone has any ideas of what can be done here?

if so, thanks,

Tomas

"in 1972, my father became a self-taught stonemason because he
wanted a stone house and couldn't afford to pay someone to do it for him.
Since then, he used red "glade" rock from our area of southern Virginia and
built three stone fireplaces and put stone on the entire exterior of our
house. It is beautiful. One of his additions to our house has an interior
wall that is an exterior wall of the original house.

On December 18, 2004, there was a wood stove/oxygen fire at my parent's
house and my father died. The stone walls and roof survived and although
only one room burned and the adjacent one melted (the kitchen), the entire
house has to be gutted and rebuilt before my mother can move back in.

The interior/exterior den wall and the fireplaces are black with smoke
damage. The contractor who is doing the rebuilding told my mother that
they might have to tear these stone elements down if they are not able to
clean them by sandblasting. This is extremely upsetting to my mother as my
father gathered the stones over years from the countryside and built these
stone structures himself.

Do you have any advice about cleaning stone that is heavily fire damaged?

Thank you in advance for any advice you can give us."

[John VanCamp]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tomas Lipps" <tmlipps-***@public.gmane.org>
To: <stone-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 6:34 PM
Subject: [stone] fire damaged rock

Post by Tomas Lipps
hello all, I just had this query. I'm unable to provide any

answers

Post by Tomas Lipps
myself and wonder if anyone has any ideas of what can be done

here?

Post by Tomas Lipps
if so, thanks,

Tomas,
I do not know what type of stone "red Glade Rock" is, but I
would caution your inquirer about sandblasting any type of
masonry. It can cause irrepairable damage. There are companies
in any major urban area that specialize in this sort of clean
up, and I would suggest that an onsite evaluation and
recommendation by one would be the best course of action in this
case.
JVC

[Charles Kibby]

Do you have any advice about cleaning stone that is heavily fire damaged?


Tomas: A lot of variables and unknowns here, but it is possible to clean
the stone without abrasive media using alkaline-based chemicals with a
pressurized water rinse. Depends on how heavy is the carbon deposition, how
hot did the stones get during the fire (interesting things can happen
chemically to some stones when heat is added to the equation). There are
also specialty restoration abrasive systems that use media tailored to the
mOH of the substrate. Check with the local stone restoration contractor in
the area or go to: http://www.traditional-building.com/rte.htm for
Traditional Building's reference service, one of several.

Good Luck!

Chaz



-

[John Twilley]

It may be possible to remove the grime by low pressure grit blasting using
walnut shell or corn cob granules (no jokes allowed). These are biodegradable
agricultural byproducts that you should be able to find sources for on the
web. One source is a company called Agrashell. They are available in sizes
ranging from that of very coarse sand to 200 mesh or smaller. For this kind of
application you would not want a grade that was too dusty.

These materials are used in metal finishing where a burnishing action is
required rather than cutting. If it is possible to remove the grime without
removing the outer grains of stone, this should do it. It may not be effective
on tarry smoke condensates, however.

Use an non-pressurized hopper feeder and put a drier in the air line to keep
condensation from causing the material to cake up or clog the nozzel. Start
with minimal pressure and work up to something that works.

John Twilley
Conservation Scientist

Post by Tomas Lipps
Do you have any advice about cleaning stone that is heavily fire damaged?

[Marla Sanderson]

Ah, at last - a speck of kindness - thank you, Dulce Maria Rico!
I think American Woman is beautiful. If only I looked that good sitting on
a piano.

Marla Sanderson

From: "Dulce Maria Rico" <dulce11-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [stone] Re: What can be art?

why would anybody say that " american woman" , or tart on piano as some of
you want to call it,doesn't contain any art? I don't understand it. It is
dangerous to star saying what art is and is not, aren't artist supposed to
be open minded?

What is wrong with a woman on top of a piano?
I consider art any process of the creative mind, regardless of subject,
material or technique. It could be more or less pleasant or nothing at all,
beautiful or in bad taste, but as soon as it is thought and created it is
art -for me of course-
I just don't like judging others and their work in negative ways for no good
reason. But that is just me.

Dulce Maria Rico
www.ricolopez.com

[Rick Farnkopf]

Post by Marla Sanderson
If only I looked that good sitting on
a piano.
Marla Sanderson

Marla,

I'll bet do Marla, without my glasses on!

Just a joking.

I always tell my wife the older I get the better she looks.

rick f

[a***@public.gmane.org]

I much prefer to contemplate what is good than what is
bad. I treasure the contemplation of what is good beyond
any measure of "hobby". It is an essential, basic
activity. I enjoy the forum of shared and discussed
contemplation in that it aids my own pursuit of
contemplation and measuring my experience and reaction.
It is a weakness, perhaps, that I require the aid of art
work to propell my contemplation, and perhaps to do away
with the art would be a step forward, but I too happy with
my comfort to do so. I like to sit on the great pile of
riches, perhaps a dragon am I, counting coins, debating
which in my treasury I prefer. Every time I do it I know
how wealthy I am.

Bill

[Norman Watts]

I am hesitating to once again admit that I don't know much about art
(in the sense that I never had an education in it). So I can't name
names and movements. I'm sure the following has been asked a lot, but I
would dearly like to receive a clear answer and perhaps some examples
to go with it so I can finally put the damn thing to rest and never ask
it again.

A general theme of the recent discussions has been this asking of
"questions" (through the art a person does) and the getting of
"answers". And also maybe the getting of new answers by posing old
questions again. This implies that the questions and answers are
somehow similar to our conventional concepts of questions and answers,
namely that different participants will all understand both the
questions and the answers in about the same way. Has anyone ever made a
large scale survey of people (untrained in art) and asked them "what
does this specific sculpture ask" or "what does this specific sculpture
say". And, most importantly, did all those polled agree on the question
and/or answer? I don't know, but I doubt it.

Somebody on this list once responded (and I'm paraphrasing grossly
here) that the "meaning" of a piece is known essentially only to the
sculptor. I tend to believe this, but would gladly be enlightened once
and for all.

n
__________________________________________________

Norman Watts, Ph. D.
National Institutes of Health
50 South Drive, Rm. 1509
Bethesda, MD 20892-8025
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

[Bill Marsh]

Post by Bob Hackett
Tart on Stienway-yes
My guess is that whenever you put something behind velvet ropes there will always be at least one
person(however misguided)willing to draw his sword and proclaim it art.

If I put a strawberry/creamcheese tart behind velvet ropes, does that
count? Or does it have to be on a Steinway? Would a Baldwin do? How
about a Bosendorfer?

[gary grossman]

Dear Hap, I'm no expert on alabaster, I've carved maybe 20 pieces of 3-4
different types, but I will echo Don Dougan's advice to be very careful
(i.e. slow & easy). Depending on the level of "veining" or amount of
inclusions, alabaster can be very brittle and easy to crack/split. Just
my 2 cents. good carving, g



Gary D. Grossman

G. Grossman Fine Art
http://www.negia.net/~grossman


Distinguished Research Professor - Animal Ecology
http://www.arches.uga.edu/~grossman

Board of Editors - Animal Biodiversity and Conservation
Editorial Board - Freshwater Biology
Editorial Board - Ecology Freshwater Fish

[Bernd Buerklin]

Hi,
I just drilled 8 marble balustrades all the way through, 3/8th hole, 18
inches long. The balustrades are less than 2.25" diam. at the smallest
point. They are old, from France, brittle. I used a SDS plus machine in
hammer drill mode. First with 1/4" bits and a selfmade guide to keep the
18 inch long bits straight. Then with the 3/8" bits. Success, but scary.
The SDS machine is very aggressive because it is made for concrete
drilling. It takes a sensitive hand to control that beast. The trick is
to really keep the bits straight and the hammer force straight down that
way. The slightest changes in angles produces force on the stone because
the bit bends and pushes against the inner wall of the hole. This can
split the piece.
Of course I would have liked to use a 20" center waterfeed diamond core
bit on a 40" travel drill press. I just could not find that anywhere nearby.
I would not use SDS hammers on alabaster. If at all maybe a normal
hammer drill. There are two kinds of drill bits that I used succesfully
on softer stones with just a drill: My first choice is ARTU, a bit that
can drill anything. It does have a special carbide tip. Stays sharp
pretty long. Second choice is Bosch Blue Granite carbide bits. They are
not as sharp as ARTU and specialised for masonry, but still work pretty
well without hammer action on the drill.
Try what works best for you! Bosch bits are cheap and ARTU bits are a
good deal, affordable I would say. Or well worth it in other words.
Good luck!

Bernd Buerklin
Stone Doctor

[Marla Sanderson]

Dear Hap

I have had some experience drilling long deep 3/8" holes into alabaster.
The first thing I learned is to drill first, carve later.

Too late for that? O.K., I've used wood bits, long and short masonry bits
(Sears - about $6.00 - $9.00) forstner bits, and various sizes of hole
cutters on a drill press - all with no water. Economy, desperation and
ignorance has guided many a project for me. Must've been some luck too.

In using a drill press, the toughest part for me has been to hold the piece
still. (Anybody have any suggestions on that?) I've improvised various
types of jigs and contraptions for each piece - always takes a lot of time
and many trips to the hardware store.

The depth of the hole is going to make a difference. When going deep,
sometimes things tend to get bound up as the dust remains in the hole. If
you're only going a few inches, you shouldn't have too much trouble, even
using a hand drill. As everyone seems to agree, just go slowly.
Good luck.

Marla Sanderson

[Bob Hackett]

Post by Marla Sanderson
In using a drill press, the toughest part for me has been to hold the piece
still. (Anybody have any suggestions on that?) I've improvised various
types of jigs and contraptions for each piece - always takes a lot of time
and many trips to the hardware store.

The easiest way I`ve seen to hold a delicate piece for work such as drilling
is to place the piece in a suitable wood box after wrapping it in a plastic
bag(keep the opening at the top).You then fill the box with expanding foam
like is used for insulating.The foam encases and cushions the piece and the
box gives you something square w/flat sides to either grip in a clamp or
bolt to a bench.After the work is done just pull the sides off the
box,carefully peel the foam away and unwrap the piece which was kept clean
by the plastic bag.
Hope this helps.

BTW-You hit it when you said to drill first if at all possible.


Bob

[Marla Sanderson]

Thanks, Bob

I've had fantasies of doing something like this with sand but thought it
might be a horrible mess. Foam insulation sounds much better. Can you buy
it in a spray can or something?

Marla

The easiest way I`ve seen to hold a delicate piece for work such as drilling
is to place the piece in a suitable wood box after wrapping it in a plastic
bag (keep the opening at the top).You then fill the box with expanding foam
like is used for insulating.The foam encases and cushions the piece and the
box gives you something square w/flat sides to either grip in a clamp or
bolt to a bench.After the work is done just pull the sides off the
box,carefully peel the foam away and unwrap the piece which was kept clean
by the plastic bag.
Hope this helps.

BTW-You hit it when you said to drill first if at all possible.


Bob

[a***@public.gmane.org]

One more amazing alabaster story. I was core drilling a
six by six by sixish finished piece of tranclucet white.
A cubey thing of my wife's. It got hot (I'm a slow
learner if at all). The entire piece crazed and whited
up. Truly shocking. It didn't get that all that hot.
Hot enough.
I pulled out my cheat juice color enhancer impregnator
sealer and swabed it. Presto, back to normal. Nothing
wrong, Honey. That is, until the magic goop wears off.

Bill

[George Graham]

I like to sit on the great pile of
riches, perhaps a dragon am I, counting coins, debating
which in my treasury I prefer. Every time I do it I know
how wealthy I am.
Said Bill

George says,,, I am, therefore I art.

[P***@public.gmane.org]

Marla...there is a tool that is fairly new, mine is called a Grip Strap.
Sears, Home Despot and others carry it. It has a rubber strap that loops
around what you are holding...length is adjustable...and a handle that acts as a
cam, gripping whatever is held.

As long as you apply it from the proper direction, it is very useful for
holding irregular objects while drilling. If your drilling needs are not
terribly delicate it can be useful.

Philip

[Marla Sanderson]

Interesting thought, Philip
I've secretly wanted a Grip Strap or two but didn't really see an
application for it. You've given me just the excuse I need and it makes
sense. I'll give it a try. Thanks.

Marla

Marla...there is a tool that is fairly new, mine is called a Grip Strap.
Sears, Home Despot and others carry it. Philip

[George Graham]

Tomas,
Please accept my condolences for your loss.

In case you have not , please inspect the integrity of the surviving
masonry. The expansion of granite when heated can cause major cracks.
I've had good results from traditional stone cleaning acid when cleaning
monuments. Its comes in crystals and is diluted with water. All the monument
supply people have it, but we need to hear from masonry experts on what acid
would do to mortar joints.
Sandblasting would be a last resort for me. It does so much damage to the
stone and joints and dulls the character of the wall.
I hope you can save the work your father did. To have his work that can be
lived in, and touched by your family now and in the future is a special and
rare thing.

Sincerely,
George Graham

[Tomas Lipps]

first let me say that I appreciate the expressions of condolence I've
received from George and others, however, that was a query I received
from someone else that I passed along to the list for advice. it was
not my father that died in the fire.

second, thanks to all who offered advice.

John Twilley's suggestion of blasting with shells seems a good thing
to try. I've heard by the way that that's a good way to eliminate
stun marks from stone. never tried it, has anyone?

"traditional stonecleaning acid. . . in crystals?" is that something
other than muriatic acid, George?

whereas Charles suggests "alkaline-based chemicals with a pressurized
water rinse. hmmm., carbon versus acid, or carbon versus alkili

good to know about http://www.traditional-building.com/rte.htm

as to the severity of the damage, I'm under the impression that it's
"just" smoke build-up, but I've asked. asked also about the rock
type. I'm passing along these recommendations and will suggest that
she consult with masonry restoration professionals in her area, if
there are any.

if I learn anything further, I'll post it here

thanks again

Tomas

[George Graham]

Post by Tomas Lipps
"traditional stonecleaning acid. . . in crystals?" is that something
other than muriatic acid, George?

Thomas,
My thought definitely needs more thought.
The stuff I spoke of is not muriatic acid, but some witch's brew that has
been used to clean granite monuments for years. It comes in a crystalline
form and is added to water , dissolved and brushed on and then rinsed off to
remove stains. Usually a cup to a gallon of warm water gives you the
standard solution. It works best on granite and other hard stones. Its not
for use on marble, as it will etch the surface. Changing the ratio of
crystals to water will change the strength. Its definitely a strong acid and
safety is a must. It works best on unpolished , and rock faced monuments.
As I learn more about the walls, I suspect that this stuff is not right for
your job.
If you want to follow up on this , I'll gladly pass on the necessary
information for you to get some.
I'm glad to hear that none of your family was in a fire!

George Graham

[John VanCamp]

----- Original Message -----
From: "George Graham" <georgergraham-***@public.gmane.org>
To: <stone-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:33 PM
Subject: [stone] Re: fire damaged rock

Post by Tomas Lipps
"traditional stonecleaning acid. . . in crystals?" is that

something

Post by Tomas Lipps
other than muriatic acid, George?

The material is most likely sulfamic acid crystals. Ok on non
calcitic stones. but will etch limestone marble etc.
JVC