homemade hydraulic stone splitter

[Greg Carter]

This post is probably only interesting for the masons...

I've completed, well I'm still tweaking, a homemade hydraulic stone
splitter.

Here are some youtube videos of it splitting 8.25" thick granite slabs

I started building it the first week of September... I've bent some
metal along the way. The local steel supply place smiles when they see
me coming...

The basics of the construction (not that I would necessarily do it the
same way again):
10" I beam (0.25" thick webs, 6" wide flange) sides
10" 15lb/ft C Channel either side of the I Beam for the top and bottom
32 7/8" grade 8 bolts holding the top and bottom to the I Beam, 0.25"
strips welded on to the back of the I Beam flanges where the bolts go
through.
Top C channels are also welded to the I-Beam
Bottom has two positions, but more than likely I'll never put it in the
lower position as it is the opening is 14" high
Two 6" hydraulic cylinders with 2500 PSI relief pressure, giving 70 tons
of splitting force. Cylinders are rated for 3600 PSI which would be 100
tons.
Top and bottom blades are "wood splitter wedges" purchased from Northern
Tool
In-feed table raises hydraulically, lowers by gravity to expose the
lower blade. It pivots at the back.

Theoretically the way the guides connect to the top blade should allow
for sloped stones, but so far I've only tested it on flat sawn top and
bottom granite.

Here's some photos at my first attempt at finishing the stone after it's
gone through the splitter
Loading Image...
Loading Image...
Loading Image...

That particular stone is for trim around a door, stone U in this drawing:
Loading Image...
I'm going for a "bubble" or "rock face" look.

I've only worked with stone a little here and there... fun to start to
really get into it now.

Greg... in Ottawa, Canada.

[Michael Shepherd]

Greg,
Given your background, (looked at your website and saw EE degree) I was
wondering if you had thought about running some finite element analysis in
something like Solid Works or a similar software. I realize this is not as
fun as just building it and seeing it come along.

Have you thought about moving the hydraulic actuators closer slightly to the
center, I imagine the bending moment in the center of that I beam is quite
high.

Aside from those details, nice job and in the end if it works, it works.

- Mike

[Michael Shepherd]

- meant the beam that the blade is attached too, not the I beams.
Mike

[Greg Carter]

Hi Mike,

I had thought about it, but I can't get my hands on a legal copy of
solid works (well not one that wont time out after a trail period). I
have played with it in the past though. I have a friend who is a good
ME. I show him what I've done, he tells me exactly where it's going to
bend if I don't reinforce it, and then I go on to prove him correct :)

The cylinder placement was a trade off based around the original height
of the wood splitter wedges. Because they were 6" high I felt I would
be giving up too much vertical height with a clevis mounted above them
(placing the table too low). Well in the end I ended up having them
waterjet cut (turned out to be cheap) down to 3". Negating the reason
why I placed the cylinders to the sides of the ends of the blades. I
may move them above the blades, I'll see how it goes.

Thanks for the input.

Post by Michael Shepherd
Have you thought about moving the hydraulic actuators closer slightly to the
center, I imagine the bending moment in the center of that I beam is quite
high.

[Nigel Ratcliffe-Springall]

As a stone-knapping troglodyte with only a rudimentary understanding of the principles of the Wheel, I'm absolutely amazed by this machine, Greg!
Uggh
Nigel Ratcliffe
_________________________________________________________________
Stay in touch with your friends through Messenger on your mobile
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/174426567/direct/01/

[m***@public.gmane.org]

Greg,

Very Cool! I like seeing this kind of homemade yet superior craft in
mechincal devices!
What city and state do you live?
Curious if your nearby.

Thanks for sharing,

Mitch Freeman

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Greg Carter greg-sOtYnyWhEWM/***@public.gmane.org
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 23:32:40 -0400
To: stone-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [stone] homemade hydraulic stone splitter


This post is probably only interesting for the masons...

I've completed, well I'm still tweaking, a homemade hydraulic stone
splitter.

Here are some youtube videos of it splitting 8.25" thick granite slabs
http://youtu.be/eJZafwPzaZ4
http://youtu.be/lk_kPVP5F_E

I started building it the first week of September... I've bent some
metal along the way. The local steel supply place smiles when they see
me coming...

The basics of the construction (not that I would necessarily do it the
same way again):
10" I beam (0.25" thick webs, 6" wide flange) sides
10" 15lb/ft C Channel either side of the I Beam for the top and bottom
32 7/8" grade 8 bolts holding the top and bottom to the I Beam, 0.25"
strips welded on to the back of the I Beam flanges where the bolts go
through.
Top C channels are also welded to the I-Beam
Bottom has two positions, but more than likely I'll never put it in the
lower position as it is the opening is 14" high
Two 6" hydraulic cylinders with 2500 PSI relief pressure, giving 70 tons
of splitting force. Cylinders are rated for 3600 PSI which would be 100
tons.
Top and bottom blades are "wood splitter wedges" purchased from Northern
Tool
In-feed table raises hydraulically, lowers by gravity to expose the
lower blade. It pivots at the back.

Theoretically the way the guides connect to the top blade should allow
for sloped stones, but so far I've only tested it on flat sawn top and
bottom granite.

Here's some photos at my first attempt at finishing the stone after it's
gone through the splitter
http://www.carter-engineering.com/images/stonesplitter/finishdstoneU2a.JPG
http://www.carter-engineering.com/images/stonesplitter/finishdstoneU3a.JPG
http://www.carter-engineering.com/images/stonesplitter/finishdstoneU1a.JPG

That particular stone is for trim around a door, stone U in this drawing:
http://www.carter-engineering.com/images/garage/docs/stonedrawings/Door.JPG
I'm going for a "bubble" or "rock face" look.

I've only worked with stone a little here and there... fun to start to
really get into it now.

Greg... in Ottawa, Canada.






-:-}-------------------------------------------------------------
Unsubscribe & other options: http://www.freelists.org/list/stone
Email stone-request-***@public.gmane.org (not the list) with subject
FAQ to get general list info
SET DIGEST to switch to digested posts (1/2 posts per week)
UNSUBSCRIBE to leave the list (send from your sub address)
List info - http://aboutstone.org/conversa/
List archives - http://aboutstone.org/conversa/arc.html
Ground rules - http://aboutstone.org/conversa/gr.html
Stone virtual library - http://aboutstone.org/vl/
-------------------------------------------------------------{-:-



--------------------------------------------------------------------
myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft® Windows® and Linux web and application
hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting

[Greg Carter]

Hello Mitch,Nigel,

Mitch I'm in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. So not so close to Georgia :)

Nigel I'm not the first to build such a machine. There are at least a
half dozen commercial offerings out there. I got the idea to use the
wood splitter wedges based on another "homemade" stone splitter. And as
Mike pointed out there are some improvements that could be made. But
glad you are amazed by it.

Post by m***@public.gmane.org
Greg,
What city and state do you live?

[FOSTER,MICHAEL]

Greg,

Awesome design and build. I am motivated. It shows
what is possible when you set yourself a goal and have the
will knowledge and skill to see it through.
I have been wanting to build a machine for cutting
stone tiles directly from a coral stone rock face. I am
thinking the best approach would be to mount a hydraulic
wall saw on a mechanism similar to a panel saw . what are
your thoughts.
We may have to communicate directly If you are
interested .
Deb kindly put some pictures on her website so you
can see what the finish product looks like . I would have
to search for the link.
Again great job.

Michael............

[Deb Vandenbroucke]

Here's the link for Michael Foster:
http://debwork.com/sculpture/stonelist/michael-foster.htm

[FOSTER,MICHAEL]

Deb,

Thanks again,


Michael..........

[Greg Carter]

Hi Michael,

Yes I remember your photos. The tile looked great, especially seeing
what you started from.

If I understand you correctly, you do not want to take the stone out of
the quarry (in this case your backyard) to a saw. You want to take the
saw to your quarry, and cut the stone "in place".
Have you seen this saw:
http://www.imerusa.com/MASONRY_900_TB_36inch.htm

You could load the boulders right into it. I believe it retails for
about $7000US, and you would need 3phase electric power. But you could
make something like it, perhaps with a smaller blade, 20" and 5 hp
electric motor.

Do you want to use something to cut boulders or something to cut the
stone in the ground?

By your description, maybe something like this?
http://www.johnsonmachineshop.com/html/post_saws.html

Post by FOSTER,MICHAEL
Greg,
Awesome design and build. I am motivated. It shows
what is possible when you set yourself a goal and have the
will knowledge and skill to see it through.
I have been wanting to build a machine for cutting
stone tiles directly from a coral stone rock face. I am
thinking the best approach would be to mount a hydraulic
wall saw on a mechanism similar to a panel saw . what are
your thoughts.

[FOSTER,MICHAEL]

Greg

Thanks for the information . I have seen the Imer
saws but not the portable bridge saw . The Initial problem
is I got a quote from the power company and bringing
the 3 phase to where I live would be very expensive. This
is one of the reasons I was thinking of using a hydraulic
motor . The other factor is the weight. It will have to be
moved around and will have to work suspended on a beam .
So I thought a wall saw type hydraulic motor would be
lighter and more practical. The last consideration is the
cost . I probably have about US$ 5000.00 so far.
I was also toying with the idea of buying and
bringing in a hydraulic chain saw ,cutting it into blocks
and storing them for later use .
However, I do know that cutting the tiles directly
from the bedrock is doable. My indecision about the
project lies in this fact . I do not have enough
experience in building this type of equipment. Without
this experience I am uncertain how easy or how difficult
it will end up being.
What are your initial thoughts.
Just some general information. There are two small
bridge saws in Barbados but the companies only use them to
fabricate kitchen counters and they have limited depth of
cut. The Island imports millions of dollars worth of
natural stone every year. We do have some very beautiful
stone but no one produces this harder type of coral stone
for counters or tiles.

Michael.............

[Christoph Henning]

Michael,
 
Thank you for promoting the use of local material. I wish you the best of luck for your project. I had an apprenticeship in a company that owned travertine quarries - very similar to your material. They used basically chainsaw like machines which were running on rails to cut out large blocks.
 
Best of luck,
 
Christoph
:


The Island imports millions of dollars worth of
natural stone every year. We do have some very beautiful
stone but no one produces  this harder type of coral stone
for counters or tiles.

                               Michael.............

-:-}-------------------------------------------------------------
Unsubscribe & other options: http://www.freelists.org/list/stone
Email stone-request-***@public.gmane.org (not the list) with subject
FAQ            to get general list info
SET DIGEST     to switch to digested posts (1/2 posts per week)
UNSUBSCRIBE    to leave the list (send from your sub address)
List info - http://aboutstone.org/conversa/
List archives - http://aboutstone.org/conversa/arc.html
Ground rules - http://aboutstone.org/conversa/gr.html
Stone virtual library - http://aboutstone.org/vl/
-------------------------------------------------------------{-:-

[s yettaw]

Post by Christoph Henning
Christoph

I am interested in aquiring or constructing either a large chain saw or a cable saw.

In your opinion do you know which would give me the best cut / cost ratio.

My plan is to slice large boulders of granite and marblized limestone . my maximum cut would be 12 feet wide

and about 5 feet down.



Any opinion would be great



Stephen yettaw

_________________________________________________________________
Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic deals on Windows 7 now
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid–91818

[Christoph Henning]

Stephen,
 
For your application I would recommend a stationary cable [wire-] saw. Considering that you propose to cut boulders I can't imagine that a chainsaw would be efficient. I am no expert on the matter. I am working sometimes out of a quarry that uses all kinds of wire saws. Seems to be great for boulders. You may have to use different cables for your two different materials.
 
Christoph 
--- On Fri, 11/6/09, s yettaw <accoladeart-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:


From: s yettaw <accoladeart-***@public.gmane.org>
Subject: [stone] Re: local material
To: stone-***@public.gmane.org
Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 8:03 PM

Post by Christoph Henning
Christoph

    I am interested in aquiring or constructing either a large chain saw or a cable saw.

In your opinion do you know which would give me the best cut / cost ratio.

My plan is to slice large boulders of granite and marblized limestone . my maximum cut would be 12 feet wide

and about 5 feet down.



Any opinion would be great



Stephen yettaw
                         
_________________________________________________________________
Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic deals on Windows 7 now
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid–91818

-:-}-------------------------------------------------------------
Unsubscribe & other options: http://www.freelists.org/list/stone
Email stone-request-***@public.gmane.org (not the list) with subject
FAQ            to get general list info
SET DIGEST     to switch to digested posts (1/2 posts per week)
UNSUBSCRIBE    to leave the list (send from your sub address)
List info - http://aboutstone.org/conversa/
List archives - http://aboutstone.org/conversa/arc.html
Ground rules - http://aboutstone.org/conversa/gr.html
Stone virtual library - http://aboutstone.org/vl/
-------------------------------------------------------------{-:-

[Greg Carter]

Hi Stephen,

You are in western Canada correct?
Got a spare $50k?
http://calgary.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-business-industrial-1993-Michele-Fazion-Macchina-2200-Wire-Saw-W0QQAdIdZ159405538

I think it's probably priced a bit high... but still probably not an
option. If you were close perhaps you could work out a rental agreement
if it doesn't sell. If it isn't too far away you could at least go look
at it to see how it is put together.

I'm no expert... but I do agree with Christoph, for those size cuts I
think a diamond wire saw is what you are after. Here is a very good
article on wire saws and cost comparison
http://www.worldstonex.com/en/InfoItem.asp?ICat=2&ArticleID=330

I've dreamed up a number of "junk yard" ideas of building a saw. The
one thing that is holding me back is the high prices of the diamond
wire. It's $100US (or more) a meter, you can get it at $50US meter from
China (no idea of quality) but shipping takes away a lot of the
savings. Build something that doesn't quite work and you are out $1000
on the wire.

Wire life varies on the type of stone you are cutting and the type of
wire, block squaring vs profiling. Anywhere from 6 meters squared of
cut stone per meter of wire to 20+ square meters cut of stone.

Here's a Chinese company that has a fairly simplistic block squaring saw
http://www.wiresawmachine.com/En/Wire-Saw-Machine-Squaring-Small.htm
Most of their other saws seem to be copies of European manufactures.
But that small saw is something I think could be duplicated with a few
less features. Basically they are electric motors with digital variable
speed drives with some feedback. The digital speed controller can
output the current of the motor (load), this then triggers a tensioning
mechanism to move the saw back to keep a constant tension on the wire.
A junkyard solution could be something as easy as a weight on a wire and
a few pulleys. A 10 hp electric or 20hp or larger gas engine, a large
drive wheel (must be rubber lined), some track and you are all set.
FWIW you can buy the Chinese one for $6500US plus shipping.

The draw back of that arrangement is it would be hard to get two
parallel cuts. The advantage is you can cut any size stone you want,
just lengthen the wire. It is a variation of a quarry diamond wire
saw,with a lot less hp, the quarry saws have 65+ hp.

The other type of diamond wire saw uses two large wheels (1m plus in
diameter), the stone sits inbetween the two large wheels which move up
and down. Check out this manufacturer for some good examples:
http://www.ogyu.co.jp/top.htm

If you go down the build it yourself route here are some things to keep
in mind:
- The wire needs to be under 250-350kg of tension while cutting
- The wire needs to be twisted so that it rotates as it cuts, to prevent
the beads from wearing unevenly. You do this by twisting the wire
(about 2 turns/meter) then connecting the two halves.
- You need at a minimum 10 hp (electric), with most commercial machines
being in the 25-25 hp range for block squaring type saws.
- The wire needs to be cooled with water.
- The large the pulley wheel the longer the wire will last, less stress
on the wire.
- For granite you want to get the wire speed in the 20 to 24 m/s range.
- Want a head start of the frame and mechanism to hold and move the two
large pulleys? - look for used automotive lifts with screw type rods for
the lifting mechanism. I don't think the ones with hydraulic rams will
work well for this application, as I do not think they are "power
down". The screw type use large acme screw rod (threaded rod), this
type of thread has the advantage of being self braking. This seems to
be what all the commercial saws I've seen use.
- I've thought about using the drive train from a front wheel drive car
to power the pulley wheel. I have gone as far to cut up an '89 jetta
and mount the engine/transaxle on a frame.

Good luck, I hope you get something together.

Post by s yettaw
I am interested in aquiring or constructing either a large chain saw or a cable saw.
In your opinion do you know which would give me the best cut / cost ratio.
My plan is to slice large boulders of granite and marblized limestone . my maximum cut would be 12 feet wide
and about 5 feet down.

[s yettaw]

Greg I am going to look at that wire saw tommorrow.

But I cannot find the original manufacturer on my searches.

any I deas what it is worth?

I realize they want 50,000

but i would like to go in with some negotiating power everything you gave me so far

was great.

but if you can add any more you opinion matters greatly



anyone else on here have any input?



the name i have is faizon machina 2200



thanks

Stephen

_________________________________________________________________
New! Get to Messenger faster: Sign-in here now!
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid–77407

[Greg Carter]

Hi Stephen,

It's hard to say. Given the location I don't think there is a huge
market for that machine.

A few things to think about:
- It most definitely has a 3 phase electric motor. Do you have access
to 3 phase power?
- It's going to cost a few thousand in dismantling and transportation,
even 2 hours away.
- The ad mentions CNC controls. It would be nice to see that work, but
from the description the current owner is unlikely to know how.
- Ideally it could be run manual without the CNC
- The saw is almost 17 years old.
- The manufacturer sounds Italian, I wasn't able to find anything about
them, perhaps they are out of business.

So you are looking at a 17 year old CNC controlled Italian made saw.
That's $50k for what could be a lot of trouble. If you need a spare part
you are going to have to have it custom made as the manufacturer isn't
around. The CNC controls... who knows, one of the encoders goes and you
are SOL. If you were to compare it to a new saw, I would compare it to
non computer controlled ones, as the likelihood of getting the CNC
working could be low.

It looks to have a nice in feed table.

My approach would be to look at it as a sum of the pieces. Try to
figure out what it would cost just in raw materials. The table is
probably a few thousand just in steel. The large pulley wheels are
worth a few thousand each if you were to have them custom made.

These are some of the things I would look at:
- The threaded rods that move the large pulley wheels up and down, what
condition are they in? If the saw hasn't been used and maintained they
might be rusty. Not good. Being 17 years old I'm going to guess that
the nut that moves up the threaded rod is brass (could be a plastic too).
- To check for play in those nuts, just grab the big pulley wheels and
try to move them. If the saw is to work well everything should be rock
solid.
- What kind of tensioning mechanism does it have? Manual, hydraulic, air?
- How is the downfeed controlled? Is there some form of feedback
(probably given it is CNC).
- Is the main motor VFD (variable frequence drive), try to find any
name plates on the motor and the controls connected to it.
- The groove on the pulleys, is it a V or a U. I believe U is more
common now. This will be important as you will have to buy new liners
(they wear). Also check the condition of the pulleys to make sure it
was not run with worn liners.
- Is there any diamond wire that comes with the saw? Is it new? How
much? This can significantly affect the price.

For any where close to $50k I would want to see the saw operate,
including the CNC part.

If you are buying it "as is". I'm projecting more of what I would pay
vs what it may be worth but... I would think $10k to $15k, maybe even as
little as $5k. Scrape steel goes for what 12 cents a lb? And that's
all it is without the right buyer.

Good luck.

Post by s yettaw
Greg I am going to look at that wire saw tommorrow.
But I cannot find the original manufacturer on my searches.
any I deas what it is worth?
I realize they want 50,000
but i would like to go in with some negotiating power everything you gave me so far
was great.
but if you can add any more you opinion matters greatly
anyone else on here have any input?
the name i have is faizon machina 2200

[David Modine]

I'm with Greg. Too much money for too many unknowns.
I 'm the not so happy owner of a Candiani brand wire saw purchased
perhaps 6 or 7 years ago. Italian made. It never really worked out
well for the type of work we do, so mostly it became a $25K
paperweight. Something electronic stopped working several years back,
and I've had no success getting any help from the manufacturer to get it
up & running again. I'd be happy to get rid of it for 20 cents on the
dollar I paid for it.

David in MD

[s yettaw]

David email me at accoladeart-***@public.gmane.org and I will gladly consider your saw.



Stephen Yettaw

_________________________________________________________________
Click less, chat more: Messenger on MSN.ca
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid–77404

[s yettaw]

Greg thanks

i will print all this out and be sure to go over the machine well.

I will assess it try to fine a manufacturers patch or books if they have and see if i can find the company after.

as for extras they had extra cables and a few other parts yet to be seen.



As for 3 phase, I have seen a diesel generator that produces 3 phase, I think I would lease that for power.



So i will go have a look and then do more research.

I asked why they never used it.

Seems the owner died before he had time to Show them.

Died of lung cancer... Stone related? hmmm...



As for a market well my plan

I have a huge source of large boulders from local farmers here we have glacial till with

quite a large amout of oversize... biggest i've seen here was house size and that was what

was above ground.



I realy dont know if I will make a finacial go of it or not.



But this week I did a grave stone.

and needed a pillow base...

3 companies wont sell to me a fourth one agreed to but they wanted $600 for stanstead grey and over $1000 for pinks and black. Just the base... I realize they need profit too. So maybe I can make them cheaper.

And I tried to order directly from Stanstead Quebec and they dont want to deal with me directly as they have " agreements in place"



In the end I cut a nice pink one using the chain saw.

I think I can find a market for the stone.

but paying $50,000 is way too much for me .

that is why I want to go there with some knowledge to negotiate.



Again thanks.



Stephen Y



_________________________________________________________________
New: Messenger sign-in on the MSN homepage
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid–77403

[Kreigh Tomaszewski]

Post by s yettaw
I think I can find a market for the stone.
but paying $50,000 is way too much for me .
that is why I want to go there with some knowledge to negotiate.

You might talk to them about a rent to own deal that gets you the
machine to make the money to pay it off.

[Greg Carter]

Stephen,

Off topic but who did you try to buy the stone from in Stanstead?

There are many places in Stanstead to buy stone, someone will sell to
you. I recently purchased 50 tons of sawn slabs and I'm no one special.

If you ever want to try again:
Try:
Granite Center Beebe
1-819-876-7888 ask for Luc (sales guy)
They can cut you granite in just about any colour you want. Stanstead
grey and Polycor grey being the cheapest. Polycor grey is basically the
same rock formation as Stanstead just not the same quarry. The quarry is
right next to Granite Center Beebe so they sell it cheaper as there are
no transportation costs. I took some pictures of the quarry when I was
there this spring...
http://www.carter-engineering.com/images/stonefromquarry/polycor/
Granite Center Beebe is a saw shop, I'm not sure if they do polishing
there or not. This is who I purchased the 50 tons through. 8" thick
slabs of polycor grey go for about $17.50 sqft, if you are interested
I'll scan their price sheet and email it to you.

There are at least two main shippers that have a large presence in Stanstead
RH RedikerTransport
[phone]‎
and
MexUsCan
Contact Fred for a quote amonaco-leJrOgFdc/JWk0Htik3J/***@public.gmane.org, 1-800-361-5151 ext 3315

I used MexUsCan.

Post by s yettaw
But this week I did a grave stone.
and needed a pillow base...
3 companies wont sell to me a fourth one agreed to but they wanted $600 for stanstead grey and over $1000 for pinks and black. Just the base... I realize they need profit too. So maybe I can make them cheaper.
And I tried to order directly from Stanstead Quebec and they dont want to deal with me directly as they have " agreements in place"

[s yettaw]

thanks Greg.

I dont remember which company I tried to buy from. The people at granquartz refered me to a company

I needed a huge block for a monument, the sales rep was named Jean. At first they were going to sell it then they backed out.

instead I dug up a big boulder on the farm and it seems to work though it has a extremely high Pyrite content.

tin flakes and sheets come out when i cut it just from the heat of the blades , might not be tin but best desciption .



Next time i will try your supplier.

thanks for the help this week.

much appreciated.



Stephen

_________________________________________________________________
Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic deals on Windows 7 now
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid–91818

[s yettaw]

wow Greg thanks. it is about 2 hours from where I live, so i might venture out there to talk to them

chances are i cant afford it but we will see.

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid–91815

[Greg Carter]

Hi Michael,

How did you cut the tiles that you have already made?

How large a title do you want to cut? As that will dictate how large a
blade you will need.

If you can run hydraulic, I assume this means you can run a gas engine,
as you would need one to power the hydraulics correct?

If so have you thought about a concrete walk behind saw?
http://www.mkdiamond.com/concrete/saw_20.html

You could rig it up on rails for the beginning cuts until you get a flat
surface. The reason I suggest this is to cut down on the cost. If you
go hydraulic you need to buy the hydraulic "power pack" (the gas engine,
hydraulic pump, tank, valve) which will add at least $1000, probably
closer to $2000. The walk behind saws are gas powered and you might be
able to find a used one. With a 20" blade you can get a 7.5" cut
depth. I guess this doesn't meet your requirement of being light enough
to move around. Just something to think about. I'm not even sure if it
would work all that well.

If you go the chain saw route I think I might be inclined to go with a
gas one for the same reason. They are also much cheaper for the saw
compared to the hydraulic ones.

What about cutting blocks out with a gas powered chain saw, then sawing
the tiles on a stationary circular saw? Or getting the blocks out with
a combination of the chain saw and drilling. Drilling will be much
cheaper for the consumables. Have you tried drilling and splitting to
get a "block" out?

Post by FOSTER,MICHAEL
Greg
What are your initial thoughts.

[FOSTER,MICHAEL]

Greg,
Some of the blocks were removed with an electric
hammer drill. Some were removed with a gas powered
waterfed angle grinder with a 14" diamond blade and then
we used chisels and hammers to dislodge these blocks .
Both of these types of blocks were put on a block saw
first to make rectangular blocks 4 "in height and then
cut into 3/8 tiles on the same saw . the edges of the
tiles were then all rounded with a small angle grinder and
then hand sanded. All told it was far from ideal but we
used what was available. I did have a friend help me
especially in the labour intensive areas.
I would like to be able to cut 12"x 24"x 1/2"tiles.
So I would need something that would cut at least 12"deep.
If this depth is going to escalate the cost I would
consider settling for 8".
Running a gas or diesel engine will be a little loud
fot the neighbours but they have been very accomadating so
far.
Barbados is a coral Island and most of the rock is
under a couple of feet of top soil. In some areas the rock
can be found on the surface. There are plenty other places
that I can source the rock from.
I did look at the walk behind saws . My thinking was
that cutting 1/2" tiles would require the cuts to be
fairly accurate and I was not sure that the walk behind
could be guided to give the accurately , especially to a
12" depth. I have not closed the doors on any approach . I
do though want to be making the right choice in the
begining.
The chain saw approach will require two sets of
equipment and I think it is the cheeper approach . I am
concerned about how labour intensive it will be.
I have never tried drilling and splitting or any
combination there of. I understand how the drilling and
splitting would work on a boulder but I do not understand
how it would work on horizontal bedrock or a rock
face.Nearly all of the Island is one solid coral mass. It
can be crumbly, it can be hard enough to be hand sawn and
used as a building block . Then you can find this very
hard stuff that I am working with. When this very hard
materialis is met in the quarries it is blasted and
crushed for aggregate . If you dig down in the soil you
might find some liftable rocks near to the coralstone but
if I wanted boulders I would have to purchase some that
have come out during excavation in the quarry.


Thanks for your advice so far I hope this has filled in
some of the blanks.

Michael.......................

[FOSTER,MICHAEL]

Hi Greg,
Just wondering if the reply below was posted for
you to see.

Michael............




Greg,
Some of the blocks were removed with an electric
hammer drill. Some were removed with a gas powered
waterfed angle grinder with a 14" diamond blade and then
we used chisels and hammers to dislodge these blocks .
Both of these types of blocks were put on a block saw
first to make rectangular blocks 4 "in height and then cut
into 3/8 tiles on the same saw . the edges of the tiles
were then all rounded with a small angle grinder and then
hand sanded. All told it was far from ideal but we used
what was available. I did have a friend help me especially
in the labour intensive areas.
I would like to be able to cut 12"x 24"x 1/2"tiles.
So I would need something that would cut at least 12"deep.
If this depth is going to escalate the cost I would
consider settling for 8".
Running a gas or diesel engine will be a little loud
fot the neighbours but they have been very accomadating so
far.
Barbados is a coral Island and most of the rock is
under a couple of feet of top soil. In some areas the rock
can be found on the surface. There are plenty other places
that I can source the rock from.
I did look at the walk behind saws . My thinking was
that cutting 1/2" tiles would require the cuts to be
fairly accurate and I was not sure that the walk behind
could be guided to give the accurately , especially to a
12" depth. I have not closed the doors on any approach . I
do though want to be making the right choice in the
begining.
The chain saw approach will require two sets of
equipment and I think it is the cheeper approach . I am
concerned about how labour intensive it will be.
I have never tried drilling and splitting or any
combination there of. I understand how the drilling and
splitting would work on a boulder but I do not understand
how it would work on horizontal bedrock or a rock
face.Nearly all of the Island is one solid coral mass. It
can be crumbly, it can be hard enough to be hand sawn and
used as a building block . Then you can find this very
hard stuff that I am working with. When this very hard
materialis is met in the quarries it is blasted and
crushed for aggregate . If you dig down in the soil you
might find some liftable rocks near to the coralstone but
if I wanted boulders I would have to purchase some that
have come out during excavation in the quarry.


Thanks for your advice so far I hope this has filled in
some of the blanks.

Michael.......................

[Greg Carter]

Hi Michael,

Sorry for the late reply...

12" tiles, hmm I think you will need at least a 28" blade for that.

The hydraulic wall saws are expensive. The only pricing I've found is
for the UK, but it's prohibitively expensive
(http://www.priorityplant.com/Husqvarna-WS325-hydraulic-wall-saw/212.htm).
Plus you still have to buy the power unit, which will be a gas or diesel
engine, while it will be quieter than a 2 stroke gas chainsaw, not sure
if the difference will be appreciated by your neighbours :)

Even getting the 8" tiles out will require a 20" blade or so.

Now to make one? I've looked at the specs for the Husqvarna 325
(http://us.husqvarnacp.com/node1552.aspx?nid=63825&pid=10383 ), and
those are 8.4 hp output with 9.5-12 gpm hydraulic flow. According to
http://www.mkdiamond.com/stone/tec_speed.html you need an operating
range of 1000-1500 rpm for a 36" to 24" blade. My guess would be to
start with a hydraulic motor with around 3.6 in3/r displacement, this
will turn from 500-750 rpm, exactly half of what you need the blade to
turn at, so you will need a gear/pulley. The hydraulic motor would
output around 8 to 10 hp depending on pressure/flow. As an example the
Eaton/Char-Lynn type S series motor (3.6 in3/r) might do
(http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products/pdfs/E-MOLO-MC001-E5.pdf), they
sell for around $200US. Then you need a hydraulic pump and gas engine
to power it, I think you'll want a 20hp engine, I haven't looked at that
end of it. But you need a hydraulic pump that can put out 2000 psi at a
full 12 gpm. It's doable, I would be a little leery of making it light
enough to move around with just one person. My initial thought would be
to build a very heavy frame for it. I kind of like the set up of the
Imer saws, you could extract the blocks and put them on a cart and push
them into the saw. You could just run the saw off the gas engine if you
were going to do that.

Hope that helps.

Post by FOSTER,MICHAEL
Hi Greg,
Just wondering if the reply below was posted for
you to see.

[FOSTER,MICHAEL]

Greg,
With regard to the cost I was initially planning to run
the machine off of a tractor’s hydraulic pump. I will
extract what I need out of my yard . This could be as
little as 1000 cubic feet to as much as 10,000 cubic ft
depending on how far and deep I go. At this point I would
be able to assess the projects full potential. As I told
you before, there is no shortage of this type of rock on
the Island.
Your expertise in engineering is a big help and much
appreciated.
When I first brought up the topic on the list Tom
Monagham had informed me that these wall saws can be
picked up at good prices secondhand. This is an option I
would pursue with the help of the members of the list.
I am hoping to be able to operate the equipment with one
other person.

There seems to me to be two options to be considered.
---Option 1
A frame and saw can be set up away from the rock to cut
the blocks into tiles. We would still have the task of
removing the blocks of stone from the bedrock. I assume
this is to be done with a second piece of equipment .
---Option2
If we set the frame over the bedrock we can cut ( as an
example) lines left to right at ½”intervals.Then change
the orientation of the saw to cut forward and backward at
two foot intervals the tiles would then have to be
undercut to release the individual tiles.(12”x24”x1/2”.)
This cut could even be done with a small waterfed angle
grinder as each tile would only be ½” thick. (Under sawing
using the big frame mounted saw might be a design
dilemma.)
We would then have to make a comparison between the cost
effort an efficiencies of the two options .
There is also the challenge of cutting straight down or
even straight across . I have some ideas about this but
traditionally all the quarries I have seen are cut in
steps.There may also be a safety consideration at work
here.
I can envisage a frame built to cut an area 8 ft x6ft.
After this cut is made and the stone taken out the
equipment has to be moved down ,left,right ,backward or
forward . This move would have to be done fairly often
and this is why I would like the piece of equipment to be
as light and manoeuvrable as possible.I would however
never want to compromise safety or durability.
I think we need to talk over skype the other people on
the list may be getting tired of this subject .Maybe you
need to spend a working holiday here in Barbados .Thanks
for your help so far.
Michael………

[Greg Carter]

Hi Michael,

What size tractor do you have (make/model hp?), do you know what the
hydraulic flow is? You'll need 10 to 12 gpm at 2000 psi to operate the
hydraulic motor.

I've been researching different ideas. As you suggest hydraulic it is
probably the best for your case, as the saw head will be relatively
light weight so you can move it around. It also eliminates any dangers
with electricity near water. Which brings up another question. Do you
have access to water? and if cutting the stone "in place" how will you
handle the run off? Does it have some where to go? Or will you be able
to recycle it?

The one part of the saw I'm not too sure about is the arbor, the part
you attach the blade to. I would have thought I could find one to order,
but so far haven't had any luck. I have spoken to a machine shop which
will make one, so there is that option.

Post by FOSTER,MICHAEL
Greg,
With regard to the cost I was initially planning to run
the machine off of a tractor’s hydraulic pump.

[FOSTER,MICHAEL]

Greg,
I do not own a tractor but I do have some
friends who are in agriculture and have equipment. At
worst I would have to rent a skid steer loader. . I would
have to check on the output of the equipment . Would this
information be available on the information plate on the
tractor or would I have to check with the dealerships. I
am not big on borrowing , or renting for that matter . I
just thought it might be best as we would be running a
prototype, something that as far as I know has never been
done . I would be happy to buy the hydraulic power supply
if I could afford it.
My water source would be my domestic water supply.
Coral stone has fissures and there is a 6” wide crack in
the back yard that as far as I can tell is bottomless.
The area of the yard where the stone is could be made
into a basin for the water to be recycled.
How would you be planning to mount the saw . It
would be helpful if it could rotate 90 degrees . I think
it would also be an advantage for the blade to clear the
underside of the frame that the saw will run on . I have
some ideas on how the frame could facilitate the left to
right and forward and backward movements but I wonder
about your thinking in this regard.
Greg this is kinda amazing to me and probably
could only happen on this list . It must be something in
the dust . I have never met you the only thing I know
about you is that you are a man who has built an
incredible machine . You probably know less about me .
Still you have been willing to find time to help me . I
am humbled by your kindness . Thank you very much.

Take care
Michael…………………..

[FOSTER,MICHAEL]

Greg,
with regard to the arbour. Do the commercial saws
that cut tiles from blocks have multiple blades.

Michael...

[Greg Carter]

Hi Michael,

I did a bit of searching around and didn't find anything specific to
cutting tiles. Some information on multi blade gang saws, but those use
a long horizontal blade.

I was specifically looking for a single blade arbour for a circular saw.

Post by FOSTER,MICHAEL
Greg,
with regard to the arbour. Do the commercial saws
that cut tiles from blocks have multiple blades.
Michael...

[FOSTER,MICHAEL]

Greg,

I checked a website recommended by Tom and some
thing called a hydraulic hand saw came up they are far
cheaper than the wall saws could this be used as a
starting point or do you think it is better to start from
scratch.

http://www.americandiamondproducts.com/UserFiles/wolverine_handsaw.pdf

All the best for 2010 .

Michael..........

[Greg Carter]

Hi Michael,

That saw looks interesting. The motor is direct drive. The walls saws
used gearing to get the correct RPM. I'm interested to know what
hydraulic motor they are using. It does look like a good place to
start. You could order some linear bearings and rails (ebay link
below), mount them to a steel tube (4x4x0.25). Take a look at these
electric driven saws to get an idea:
http://www.northerntoolingsolutions.com/quarry_saws_and_conveyors if you
look closely where the electric motor is attached, those are the linear
bearings/shaft. To keep it simple you could hand feed the blade (you
can do this safely from a distance), and instead of having the blade
height adjustable have the 4x4 tube adjustable at either end, which it
sounds like you will need anyway. I think you'll need this as I do not
think you will be able to make a full depth cut in one pass.

linear bearings -
http://cgi.ebay.com/Linear-Rail-59-2-Bearings-CNC-Router-Mill-Plasma-Laser_W0QQitemZ150361490051QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_2?hash=item23023e4283

Post by FOSTER,MICHAEL
Greg,
I checked a website recommended by Tom and some

[FOSTER,MICHAEL]

Greg and Tom

I sent an e-mail to the company asking for
more details on the saws. I did not know at the time that
Tom was directly involved with the company. I have not
received a reply from them as yet.

Tom as you know , Greg is far more knowledgeable than
I and is interested to know full details on the motor.

I am not sure if it is OK for me to continue
these developments on the list . If anyone has a problem
please let me know and I will try to conduct further
discussion between those directly involved.

Thanks to you all .

Michael...........

[s yettaw]

what metal did you use for your cutting edges?

how good does it work on uneven surfaces?



Stephen

great JOb though

_________________________________________________________________
New: Messenger sign-in on the MSN homepage
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid–77403

[Greg Carter]

Hi Stephen,

They are wood splitter wedges, purchased from Norther Tool
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_363212_363212
I haven't done enough splitting yet to know the long term durability.
They seem to be holding up well to the granite. I did some initial
testing using sandstone, and on those they gouged pretty easy. Although
I think they maybe work hardening as I use them. I know of another
homemade stone splitter that uses them and the owner said he has put 10s
of tons of sandstone through it and the blades have held up. He says
they dull to a certain point and then just stay that way. If they prove
inadequate I may try some AR400 plate.

The upper blade is allowed to pivot between the two cylinders, so
theoretically it should work on uneven stone. I haven't tested that
out yet. I plan to use it to split mainly the sawn granite slabs and
limestone, so flat stones. I don't think it would work well on granite
field stones. Commercial versions have individual chisels that allow
for height variation across the stone. I'll post some video when I try
out some uneven rocks.

what metal did you use for your cutting edges?
how good does it work on uneven surfaces?